I posted this on my facebook page originally, and as expected it did cause a lot of controversy and engagement…which is good. Controversy means that it made people think, and what could be better than that?
I have edited a couple of points for clarity.
I know this is going to cause some controversy, but as the years go by and I work with more and more people, I am becoming more and more convinced that you don’t need as much volume as you think.
Most lifters do way too much, something I call “junk volume”.
It only takes 1-2 hard sets to get 80-85% of the training effect, and doubling-tripling that only provides marginal benefits with a large increase in potential negatives. Even Schoenfeld’s meta-analysis (there are some obvious confounders with reviews, but I’m not going into that here) showed that less than 5 weekly sets provided 5.4% gains, 5-9 weekly sets, 6.6% gains, whereas 10+ sets provided 9.8%. When stratified into less than 9 and more than 9 weekly sets, the difference was 5.8% and 8.2%, respectively.
This makes it sound like you get twice the gains by doubling the volume, but in practice, it doesn’t play out quite like this.
The rate of gains might be higher in the short term, but a very common outcome is that fast gains lead to faster stagnation and in many cases, various connective tissue problems or other overreaching symptoms.
Those who tolerate, thrive or benefit from the higher volumes usually have one or more of the following traits:
– submaximal training (keeping more reps in reserve, either by intent or because they’re not used to going to failure). This type of high-volume training works great for strength (via skill/practice) and the Norwegian Powerlifters who dominate on world rankings are reknowned for this type of training.
– great genetics, with a frame built for strength and muscle
– young guys and girls with optimal hormone levels and great recovery
– specialists who have worked up to tolerating that volume over years within their respective sport. At this level, the 1-2% advantages win trophies so the investment is worth living on the brink of overreaching. They also have their recovery needs taken care of, and some are often full-time athletes or competitors who live, breathe and die by their respective sports.
– drug use. This includes some coaches who are obvious or self-admitted drug users. It is hard for a coach to avoid confirmation bias – I know I have suffered from it many times during my career – so my best advice for mitigating this is to always question if what you believe is really true. A lot of the time, a belief can be true but only in specific contexts – which is what inspired me to write this post in the first place.
Dmitrij Klokov, a world champion weightlifter who also got several top placings in bodybuilding competitions. A genetic freak built for lifting has trained his whole life and is doing amazingly well with high-volume training. What works for him may not work for you.
Everyone else – we might THINK or WANT we belong to one of these demographics, but I think it is wiser to take an objective look at what hand nature has dealt us, and do a more intelligent investment strategy with your training efforts.
I know you probably don’t like to hear this, but when we get to a certain point it will be hard to gain even 1-2lbs/0.5-1kg of muscle mass per YEAR. How much effort and time are you really willing to put in to gain that 500g of muscle?
Answer that before reading on.
I have lowered volume consistently with most of my clients and it has only provided better results. I have also had several previous high volume clients on “rehab”, with the same story. Their gains were awesome in the beginning, they were constantly sore and tired but had some great gains…then they eventually experienced various aches and pains, and some of them ended up completely demolished.
When all motivation to train is gone, and when joints and tendons are starting to hurt – but you still keep going because this study or that expert says that it is “optimal”, I think we are – again – stuck in the mindset of general vs. individual.
I could pull all sorts of more relevant studies and show you how the outliers skew the averages in various studies on volume. There are high-responders, average-responders, and non-responders in various studies – yet the average gains in one volume tier vs. the other may favor the higher volume.
In my humble experience, from the clients I work with long-term – there are very few non-responders with more sane workout approaches. To give you an idea: Most muscle groups or exercises get 1-2 maybe 3 sets per workout and 2-4 workouts per muscle group per week.
The gains may not be as impressive in the first 6-8 weeks, but when I work with someone for 12-16 weeks (3-4 months) or longer, the gains just keep coming at a steady rate. An added, but important bonus is that they stay motivated, fresh and pain-free during that whole time.
I have clients returning after 3-6 months on their own, and they are still gaining (as long as they didn’t get tempted to chase excessive volume/frequency, or contract a difficult case of the well-known disease “fuckaround-itis”).
Chasing volume is fine if you fit into the categories I mentioned above, and you are willing to stay on the brink of overreaching for the sake of squeezing out a few extra % gains. Or if you just like to spend time in the gym, and compensate for the volume by working submax and taking longer breaks between sets.
For the rest of you, I would take some time for honest introspection. Are your gains in the gym the last few months or years, in line with the time and effort spent there?
I would try the following if you are getting nowhere on your current program, and suffering from various aches, pains or general lack of motivation:
– Take 9-14 days completely off and do something completely different. Walking/hiking, biking, swimming, play with your balls (I’m obviously talking about soccer, basketball, tennis etc), some easy mobility work (e.g. tai chi and yoga), just do something completely different to reset your mind and body.
– Go back in the gym, start with 1 set only and lighter loads for the first week or two. 2-3 workouts/week is fine.
– Go harder for the next week or two, then add in 1-2 sets of a few exercises (not all of them) per workout where you need to.
– Watch your strength increase quickly at first, and then settle at a reasonable but consistent rate over time.
– Don’t push it, and learn to appreciate how it feels to leave the gym without being completely drained or with various aches, pains or soreness constantly bothering you.
– Enjoy training, but not just in the gym lifting weights. I believe it is important to have fun, and your body is capable of a lot more if you just experiment!
Steve
Great article Borge! I think it was definitely needed. Your like the Yoda of strength training these days =) I’m doing a high frequency program right now for strength (your sub-max category) with DUP, and I experimented the other week (after reading this on your FB) with only using 1-2 good sets (as opposed to around 3-4 sets) per movement, and I left the gym feeling fresh and without “various aches, pains or soreness”. The following week I noticed that I was able to push my big lifts harder with only needing to put my attention to 1-2 sets due to my normal aches and pains being gone. So I’ve now lowered my working sets to 1-2 and have kept my high frequency approach. I think getting rid of the “junk volume” and putting my efforts into only 1-2 solid sets will have me progress comfortably and with lesser pains over the long term like you said.
Appreciate your wisdom Borge!
Borge
Do. Or do not. There is no try. 🙂
That is awesome feedback, Steve – I’m happy to hear it works for you!
Joseca
Great content as always Borge,
I’m really gratefull as you opened my eyes with your high frequency training approach a couple of years ago, after a really long time of non-existent progress.
I have experimented with higher volume approaches, but after 3 or 4 weeks i start asking myself why i’m doing this. I think that we always link fatigue to the efectiveness of a workout, instead of seeing it as a byproduct we should manage.
Anyways, everytime i lower the volume i feel much better, and the progression i experimented with higher volumes is still the same, even better. But, as a human, i make the same mistake again, and i gradually start to add sets more volume… and the cycle starts again.
BTW, At the moment i’m doing the Bayesian Bodybuilding PT course and i really like the content. I know that you and Menno share a lot of ideas 🙂
Appreciate your work Borge!
Borge
Great to hear, Joseca – and I think you should just start to trust your instincts 🙂
Eric Ramos
“Watch your strength increase quickly at first, and then settle at a reasonable but consistent rate over time.”
This is the part that gets me, I usually do 2 sets (failure) and hit a BP two times a week and I’m not sure what counts as consistent rate but most of my pushing exercises just tend to stagnate. I tend to go with a more minimalistic routine.
I’ll have to give a shot with maybe 3-4x a week to see if the added frequency helps. But at that point I know I may need to stay away from failure.
Love the article. Hopefully I finally find a way to make this work.
Borge
For strength gains, you would get more out of 1-2 reps from failure and doing 2-4 sets of low reps (even singles) at a higher frequency.
Eric Ramos
Thanks, I went back to your FB page and did a search. I found lots of info that you wrote on stalls. I also saw how you recommended doing sets closer to failure if you wanted size.
I’ve always bought into the HIT idea that training to failure will get you as strong as possible and size would follow those strength gains. But I’ve got a 2.5 squat, 3*BW for 5 reps on my dead and no size. I’m at least 20 lbs away from my potential, according to the height-100 formula.
But I’ll have to mess around with frequency like you mention here as I followed the frequency that most in HIT would recommend, 1 or 2* a week.
Borge
If you’re that strong, you should probably gradually and slowly increase your volume – but I would also use training such as Myo-reps extensively, to maximize the related adaptations (satellite cell activation, capillarization, glycogen storage etc).
Eric Ramos
Thanks, I think I’d die with MyoDeads lol, but I’ll try on the others. You aren’t the first to tell me I should increase volume. But too much volume never did anything for me. I like brevity in my workouts so MYo reps will definitely help and the tips here I think will help.
Pressing and benching I’m exceedingly weak though I’m small boned, 6.25 wrist, 6ft wingspan and I’m 5’7.
Borge
Hence: “gradually and slowly increase your volume”.
It doesn’t even have to be on all muscle groups, so i.e. add a Myo-rep set on 1-2 isolation exercises for 1-2 muscle groups for a period of 4-6 weeks, then change focus (or add in 1-2 isolation exercises for another 1-2 muscle groups).
Bunny
Look at you recommending people SD and do 1-2 sets with high frequency after, slowly ramping it up 😉
I still remember your posts over at the hst forums, blade. I remember maxstim and the birth of myoreps from you dragging out the heavy work and implementing cluster sets
Borge
Yup, imagine that after years of research and experience, I have come around to pretty much the same principles 🙂 The only difference is that I also place more importance in what rep ranges is more productive for a given lifter and subsequent cycles will spend more time in that rep range.
DJ
More is less, eh? Sounds a bit like Heavy Duty a-la Mentzer/Yates. Seriously though, I’ve gone to a higher frequency upper/lower split 2 on, 1 off hitting body parts once every 72 hours (basically 3x in a 7 day period) and I’ve noticed some decent gains with less fatigue. Being 50, it’s been a nice change from chasing high volume and I save time in the gym. I do, however, get in more sets than you may be advising. Only on back and legs though. Normally I’ll end up with up to 25 – 28 sets per week of each. Smaller muscle groups get maybe around 10 – 12 per week. Doesn’t seem too much does it? Been going like this for over 5 months. Maybe I’ll scale back a bit.
Borge
I have some of my elite bodybuilders and fitness competitors doing 20-24 sets per week, if that tells you anything.
DJ
It does. I am definitely not elite, genetically gifted or enhanced. Not going to make me sad to drop it back. With maturity I’ve discovered that the perceived loss in “gainz” because I’m not killing myself in the gym is misguided at best and detrimental at worst. But then again, I’m not a 23 y/o male wanting to be Arnold either! Love your stuff and I practice the principles your biorhythm way of eating (I hate the term “diet”). It’s made a difference in my overall body composition.
Boz
Borge, awesome article as always! I wish you should post more regularly :).
Let me ask you couple of questions. Currently, I train each muscle group 3 days on, one day off and then repeat the cycle…. something similar to your chest workout (light, heavy, medium, off strategy). Weekly volume is ¬ 12 sets/ muscle group.
What I’ve noticed is that some of the muscle groups respond quite well and I’m progressing quite well (at least in terms of strength) but other stagnate and I remember in one of your comments you say that the optimal program does not follow strict frequency and the real art is to find out what frequency and volume are most appropriate for each muscle group.
Could you share some tips what kind of experimentation could we use to get to know our optimal frequency/volume per muscle group?
I will keep the routine as it is now for muscle groups that do well but wondering what to change when it comes to non-responders. I increased my chest weekly volume with +2 sets (14) and after couple of wks I got a nasty pain in the shoulder joint without any strength progress. This could be a result of pushing almost all sets to failure and here is my last question…. I know you recommend going near failure when we aim for size but what RIR would you recommend for best results and could those sets to failure be the cause of my pain? I did the mistake to change volume and proximity to failure at the same time and now I can’t understand what is the cause of the issue.
I look forward for your 0-carb book.
Borge
Well, if the current frequency and volume isn’t working, you need to change something. It could be that the muscle group/lift in question is at a less advanced level than the others (eventually, it will be as the others progress) – and that you should treat it like a “beginner”. So less frequency (2-3x/week) and less volume (1-2 sets per workout). You should also experiment with a phase of Myo-reps, I have seen that reignite muscle growth in many clients.
I generally recommend 1 RIR, and sometimes 2-3 for some lifters. At heavier loads you can work submaximally (i.e. 2-3 RIR) and still get maximum benefits as muscle activation is close to maximum from the very first rep.
Boz
Thanks my friend!!!! I owe you a big one.
Paul
Borge what are your thought about deload week and functional overreaching during the month (increase volume every week)?
Borge
I will write more about this in the Myo-reps e-book, soon to be released – but it’s completely illogical in a physiological system. Applying a sufficient stressor will allow the organism to adapt. Applying an excessive stressor will cause maladaptation. E.g. getting a suntan – would you rather gradually expose yourself to the sun over several days and weeks, or do you think intentionally getting a sunburn and then spending a week indoors is a better strategy?
Paul
Yes, sounds legit.
But we can’t increase volume without limits in our training
Zäck
Hello Borge,
even if you count the warm ups as regular hard sets, Dorian Yates did only 12 weekly chest sets on his ?1993? Mr. Olympia prep for example, yet most average joes train with 20+ sets per week and still look like crap. As you recommend working with an intesity 1 rep away from failure, even less than 10 sets/week should be sufficient for us average people then, when working every set close enough to failure. For me, Yates alone prooves your points against staying too far away from failure and junk volume.
Cheers
Borge
I wouldn’t necessarily use a professional bodybuilder as an example of what to do or not to do training-wise, but I obviously agree that it makes no sense to do super-high volume programs if you’re not making any progress anyway. The return on investment is not only zero, but negative.
Peter
Great article! I’ve been trying to rush slowly, having the mindset that it’s fine to spend years to slowly progress.
What do you define as a muscle group? The numbers are easy to understand, but I’m unsure how to categorize my exercises to better use these ideas.
Let’s take the upper body push stuff. In my program I got some compound with weighted push ups, dips, overhead press, shoulder press, and some isolation with flyes and lying overhead triceps extension. Which of these fall into the same muscle group? The compounds are usually heavier (5-10 reps) and isolation 8-20 reps, changing up the reps on a weekly basis or on each workout. 3-4 workouts a week.
Does push ups, dips, flyes and tricep fall in the same group, or just push ups and dips?
Borge
Chest is a muscle group, shoulders are a muscle group (but can also be divided up into front, side and back), triceps are a muscle group. Compound exercises would involve more muscle groups, isolation less. You wouldn’t necessarily count all muscle groups equally, so, for instance, a weighted pushup might count 1 set for chest and front delts, but you might count it as 1/2 set for triceps unless you were doing them with a narrow grip.
Mark Lander
Borge, do you programm delod after 4-5 weeks of high volume training?
Or you mantain the same volume during all the year?
Which are your opinions about periodization (volume and intensity for produce better body response)?
Borge
I have discussed this in my recent e-book on Myo-reps (see my Zero Carb blog post to learn how you can get it), here’s a quote:
“I don’t prescribe to the periodization model where you are supposed to intentionally overreach or overtrain, and then take a week or two of reduced training or rest (deloading) to improve performance or muscle growth.
It just doesn’t make biological sense to do something now to achieve a positive adaptation in several weeks. The body adapts over hours and days from a given stressor.
What you are seeing is the effects of fatigue masking your true performance, but accumulating fatigue doesn’t necessarily lead to a better adaptation. I have heard many claims of this, but still seen no real evidence of it.
It makes more sense to impose a sufficient stimulus and follow that with sufficient recovery, and if you balance this correctly you should be seeing gains the very next workout. Increases in muscle mass are hard to measure on a short-term basis, so you would look at performance markers (load, or reps at the same load) going up consistently as a sign that you are programming the stress:rest ratio correctly. “
Frank
Great post Borge, thought-provoking as usual.
For submaximal training, generally for your average intermediate lifter, how many sets per lift (or muscle group) per session and how many times per week do you recommend as a baseline?
Do you like cluster sets in this regards? And (in case of positive answer) how do you set up them?
Thank you very much!
Borge
The range would be 8-18 hard sets per week, 2-6 sets per workout, 2-4x/week. With submaximal training, you can often double the volume per week/workout, depending on the lifter.
Cluster training is a viable submaximal training method, and I tend to just auto-regulate rest periods in order to ensure it is true submaximal work.
Frank
Wonderful, thank you Borge.
Regarding clusters set up, generally which parameters do you use, in terms of rep range, volume and intensity for the mini sets?
Do you like to auto-regulate them also?
Example of one cluster: mini sets of 2 with 4RM (numbers are completely made up of course) until speed start to decrease and/or you reach a target RPE. That’s how I like to do them, but I don’t know how much effective this approach could be.
Borge
There are many cluster set variations, obviously – the one I often gravitate towards is e.g. 4-6 sets of 1-3 reps with 30-60secs of rest (note, these are all ranges, since it will depend on the overall program structure and the individual client), only increasing the load when you can complete all sets without speed dropping off significantly on any rep or set.
This is for strength and power focus.
For more hypertrophy focus, I would go closer to failure, but only a certain neurological type can thrive on low rep, higher volume hypertrophy work IMO.
Frank
Got it.
With this set up, I suppose we’re talking about just one (or maybe very few more) cluster per lift per workout, right?
Borge
With the volume I recommended, it is indeed just “one” cluster, depending on how you define a cluster set. Many would consider a 3-6 sets of 1-3 reps as just that—3-6 sets…not a single cluster set.
This is also why many are having pointless arguments about volume, and throwing around e.g. Dorian Yates or the Norwegian Powerlifters at the opposite ends of the volume spectrum and bodybuilding vs. powerlifting spectrum.
Dorian would do several warm-up sets that were sufficiently heavy that others call them working sets.
The Norwegian Powerlifters do several working sets that are so light and submax that others would call them warm-up sets.
Example Dorian workout for delts:
Smith Machine Press – 120lbs x 15, 240 x 12, 340 x 8-10
Seated Laterals – 50lbs x 12, 70 x 8-10
Cable Laterals – 35lbs x 20, 70 x 8-10
Now, even though some of these are lighter sets, the reps are also higher, and if you tried to do the same workout with adjusted loads to your strength levels, you would find the “warm-up sets” to be quite fatiguing and heavy.
So is this really just a 3 set per muscle group workout, or is it 7 sets?
Then a look at a common Norwegian Powerlifting workout, taking the bench press as an example, and using % of 1RM as the loading parameters:
50% x 5, 57.5% x 5, 67.5% x 5, 72.5% x 4, 72.5% x 4, 77.5% x 3, 77.5% x 3, 77.5% x 3, 77.5% x 3, 77.5% x 3
Now, this is tallied as 9 sets in their workout logs, but looking at the numbers, all of these sets are submaximal. Most people could do 10 reps at 75% of 1RM, so doing 4-6 sets at 3-4 reps is a perfect example what we just discussed:
You and I may define this as a single cluster set, the powerlifters define it as 4-6 sets—since the rest periods are usually 2+ minutes between sets.
Hope that was an enlightening brain dump 😀
Frank
Actually I hope you will take as many as these brain dumps as possible!
Also, I’ve always wanted to know how the Norwegian PL Team trained exactly, so it was a nice bonus. If you have more informations about their high frequency routine, please share!
Back on topic. Just to be perfectly clear, for “clusters” I was referring to the typical approach to them, i.e. multiple mini-sets of low reps with short rest in-between. With this set up generally you would have more than one cluster per session (example: https://www.t-nation.com/training/magic-of-cluster-sets); hence my question.
But of course there are many more variants. I particularly like this one, because it’s sort of autoregulated and I’m sucker for autoregulation: as many singles as possible with 4RM with 45 seconds in-between, https://www.naseinc.com/blog/traditional-versus-cluster-set-training-for-strength-and-power/
Borge
I’m obviously also a fan of auto-regulation, but the problem I can see with doing that on clusters if you have no idea what your volume tolerance is, is that it’s easy to overdo it. So I would instead figure out the volume target you are aiming for, and then translate that into a cluster setup – like I did earlier – then apply some auto-regulation on top of that.
So for instance, using a 4RM, let’s say you would normally get 8-12 total reps with a volume of 3-5 hard sets.
When using singles every 45secs (which, on its own is kinda arbitrary—why 45, why not 30 or 60 seconds?), some might be able to keep going 30 minutes if they are neurologically wired for it, have a good work capacity and so on…then this might lead to excessive DOMS and muscle breakdown and take several days to recover form. So I would probably suggest picking a range of 6-18 reps, giving some leeway since working submaximally would allow more total reps, which is kind of the point with clusters.
Frank
That’s EXACTLY what happened to me (even though I used a lighter weight), the completion of the set took forever, and I’m not even remotely neurologically gifted.
Thank you so much Borge, your inputs are always invaluable.
Charles
Just bought your ebook bundle and your myoreps for busy people, and really enjoyed all of them. Thanks, Borge!
I have a few questions if you don’t mind:
1) When you count “hard sets” towards total volume, what is highest RIR that would count as hard? For example, would leaving 3 RIR still count as hard set? If so, how about 4?
2) Is it common for some lifters to find the myoreps days more difficult to recover from the heavier, lower rep days? I would normally think this might apply to those with lower work capacity, but I feel like I have good work capacity and am more on the slow-twitch dominant end.
3) Lastly, is it okay to run the upper/lower or the push/pull template under the intermediate tab for 6-7x/week? I don’t think I am ready for the session volume in the advanced program, but enjoy training frequently.
Thanks!
Borge
My pleasure, Charles—glad you enjoyed them!
1) It kinda depends on what rep ranges we are talking about, and this is where RPE can be more useful than RIR. So for instance, 1 reps at a 2RM is 1RIR but a 9RPE. 29 reps at a 30RM would be very close to a 10RPE, and in fact rep 25 would most likely be rated a 9RPE for most people and a “hard” set subjectively, even though it’s 5RIR.
Then you have the grinders who may think they have only 1RIR, but when pushed they can grind out 4 more reps.
So I would say that anything above an 8-8.5RPE qualifies as a hard set. YMMV
2) Yes, higher reps can indeed be more demanding on some lifters, especially if you are able to push yourself harder. Some people can grind out rep after rep and really go hard on the Myo-rep sets, but are cautious when lifting heavy loads, so 3 sets of 3 reps can be recovered from quickly. Others, like myself, are the opposite—and 3 sets of heavy loads will wipe me out for days but I can do daily Myo-rep training on a given muscle group and feel fine.
3) Yes.
Germano
Borge what do you think about intuitive training?
Do you have any advices for try it and implement with “no track” diet?
Thanks
Borge
If you mean intuitive as in “just go in and do whatever you want”, it takes a lot of experience to get this to work. If you have a selection of exercises and rep ranges, and auto-regulate it according to how you feel that day, I’m all for it.
Emmanuel
Borge, do you think eating carbs pre workout like sweet potatoes or fruits (1-2h pre training) is better for bodybuilding performance than eating all carbs only post workout (dinner)?
Borge
Carbs are not necessary pre-workout to perform well, no. This is highly individual, though – and for someone on a carb-based diet who responds well to it, I usually have them do 20-30g of carbs from fruit immediately pre-workout.
Jona
Have you ever tried to train with the minimum effective volume (1 set x bodypart) but with highest frequency (every day).. ?
This is like Phil Hernon fullbody routine.
As seen in latest Brad study, we need very little amount of set every week (10), so i think to give it a try..
Good evening borge!
Borge
Yes, I see no reason why that couldn’t work, if you ensure that you go failure or as close to it as possible. I would also consider Myo-reps for this purpose.
Dave
I know this is a year old, but I just recently came across some information on Phil Hernon. If you have a minute Borge, could you shed some light on this topic for me? I’ve been lifting for about 10 years with various lay offs here and there due to life and I’m looking for a change of pace from the usual full body or upper/lower split. The information on Hernon is minimal regarding his program recommendations but I’m very intrigued by his full body every day approach as I love putting all my focus into one hard set or 2 then moving on to a new movement and I prefer working the body as a unit.
If I recall correctly it was something along the lines of 1×8-10 on day one, and 1×15-20 on day, so on and so forth and you take a rest day when you feel you need it. Basically DUP but utilizing 1 set per movement. Now, if one were to do this in a full body format, would it be acceptable when cutting slowly? I would assume if you push the sets hard but avoid absolute failure and keep a rep in the tank, the lower volume would allow you to get away with this. Possibly a 2 on 1 on rotation where you hit 1×8, followed by 1×15 the next day, rest a day, then repeat and add weight and repeat? With the overlap on compounds I’d suspect you’d be seeing more than just one set for your major muscles groups at the end of the day with the exception being quads and hamstrings, unless you throw in a dead-lift variation of some sort, or perhaps weighted step ups or lunges which shouldn’t be problematic or time consuming considering the low set count.
I would venture to guess this would work for not only cutting but for a mass gaining phase as well as long as you tailor your diet accordingly. The recent volume research basically stating 10+ is “superior” for hypertrophy is intriguing, but the way I see it, if you did the format I’m presenting, and gave it your all, there’s no way you shouldn’t see size and strength gains if you hit it hard and fast. I doubt it will be as fast as doing 12 plus sets, but I don’t think you’d see twice the gains by doing that much more volume either, as you stated when it comes to real world examples. The short term gains might come quick with high volume, but the long term sides usually offset that. I’m 30 by the way and this sort of routine seems like it would jive quite well with me. Thoughts?
Borge
Hernon uses two main approaches:
1. A chest+back/legs/shoulders+arms split, 1st set 6-9 reps, 2nd set take 10% weight off, 3rd set take another 10% weight off – so basically an RPT model.
2. Daily full-body workouts until you feel like you need a rest day, rep range 10-20 reps depending on the exercise (he emphasises going by instinct and feel).
He claims 2. was the superior one. I think it largely depends on the lifter (training history, injuries etc).
I’m certainly a fan of higher frequency training, but it’s not for everyone – I got great results on the 1st program, and I’m doing something similar these days just with slightly higher volume to increase my work capacity – 5-8 sets per muscle group per workout, but never going to failure, which is probably the only way to make higher volume work unless you have everything in your life managed optimally (sleep due to a 16 month old son, stress due to high workloads these days).
Robert
Hi Dave, I have experimented with Phils full body 6 days a week program, but burned out because I have a really hard time holding back and am 58 with not perfect sleeping habits. I am going to give it another shot. Have you worked the full body 6 days a week program? What were your experiences? Thoughts?
Zäck
Hi Borge,
could people with great genetics, who would benefit from a high volume program, reach their muscular potential also with a low volume approach (e.g. 8-10 sets) if they just train long enough?
Borge
Yes, I don’t see why they couldn’t. It would be like saying that you could not get a tan unless you spent half the day instead of all day in the sun.
Zäck
Awesome, so if you dont have to be as muscular as possible in a given timeframe, you basically just increase your risk of overtraining and injuries.
Nik
Very good article!
I’ve bought your ebook about ZC borge.
But i’ve a question..
When you speak about myoreps, you consider that every myoreps set is like 3ish straight sets.
So if I want to stay in the low volume treshold area, maybe is better do less ‘myo sets’ ?
Or you consider myo reps low volume training?
Borge
Yes, if you look at the program examples that goes with the e-book, you will see that it is usually enough to do 1-2 Myo-rep sets.
Nik
One moment..
For low volume you intend a complete myo rep set (activation + 3/5 set x 3/5 reps) or less “myo set” (activation + 1/2 set x 3/5 reps) ?
Thanks Boss 🙂
Borge
I consider a normal Myo-rep set low volume regardless of total reps as per the auto-regulation principles laid out. Those are simply a function of your strength-endurance and work tolerance.
How to Build an Awesome Workout Routine (6 Key Principles) - Vegan Liftz
[…] good read on the subject is an article written by Borge Fagerli where he recommends more moderate volumes for several […]
Pablo
Sir, do you think if i reduce my training volume, is a better idea reduce caloric intake to avoid fat accumulation?
Borge
A normal workout typically burns maybe 200-300kcals/hr, maybe more if you are a bigger guy…but the few calories difference (100kcals or so) won’t make or break your progress if you don’t account for it. It is way easier to over- or underestimate daily caloric burn from regular activities, where most people can be off by 500kcals or more.
Alan
Thanks borge for your christmas’s newsletter!
One question…
If training to failure with 20RM is efficient as failure with 6RM, and I try to training daily with less volume (10 set x week), maybe on the day I use light weight, is good to do a single set to failure (20RM) instead a myo rep set 20-25+ (you mentioned that is like 3 classic set) ?
Borge
If you are training daily, you would most likely not be able to do Myo-reps every day unless you are very advanced and have everything in your life sorted (sleep, nutrition, circadian rhythm).
Green
Curious thought:
Do you believe (or have any of your clients) doing ONLY myo – reps all the time? Would it be possible to gain/grow with myo – reps in the same rate as with heavier weights?
Borge
I don’t have any of my clients on Myo-reps alone, all the time. That would be kinda lazy of me as a coach. I walk a client through the setup and evolution of a training program over time, to teach them how to train themselves after the coaching is over. Myo-reps is one of the methods used.
I wouldn’t have a problem with someone using Myo-reps as a stand-alone method to build muscle, however. It is time-efficient and more effective than the same volume of straight sets. There is no reason to believe that heavier weights are needed when hypertrophy is the only goal.
Erik
Borge, what’s your thoughts about two a day training? With a lower volume approach, the sessions would be really small I guess.
Borge
I would only use it for highly advanced lifters, unless we are talking separate exercises and muscle groups in each session. The data even on elite-level weightlifters on two-a-day training isn’t very impressive, so I would not expect intermediate level lifters to benefit.
Erik
Thanks for taking time to answer.
Benefits would mostly be to higher intensity per session?
Borge
Normally, you generate fatigue as you get deeper into a workout, so the exercises done at the end get lower quality work than exercises done at the beginning. Thus, spreading the volume out over two sessions would allow a higher quality of the exercises you would normally be doing in a fatigued state – provided that you manage your recovery well, of course.
Erik
GREAT response. Thanks Borge.
Charles
Have you ever read Scott Abel’s Hardgainer Solution? He also prescribes training very frequently (you can do the workouts daily and they are full body), but uses quite high volumes all many reps short of failure. He does specify that it is for a specific demographic – what he terms a hardgainer. Just curious if you like his approach if you have read the book?
Thanks!
Borge
I have read it, and I don’t like Abel’s approach to be honest. A “hardgainer” isn’t necessarily someone who is undertraining, it could be quite the opposite – or it could be their nutrition or sleep that is off (very often it is). I am thinking of developing some more material on how to individualize training and nutrition, as I have quite a few methods that – even though there isn’t any randomized controlled studies on them – have proved to be very effective throughout the years…
Charles
I will definitely be on the lookout if you do create more material! Thanks!
His book doesn’t make it sound like they are undertraining though. He makes it sound like they benefit from more frequency, but with more higher rep ranges several reps shy of failure. He argues that most “hardgainers” do not do well with a lot heavy, low rep movements.
I have been trying some of the workouts and do enjoy them only because I find I force myself to progress each time I lift even if I am not feeling it for that day. So, if I follow a 3 or 4 split, I always try to add load and often burn out too soon. The change in exercise selection throughout helps with this. However, I know progressive overload is ultimately the goal over time.
Sorry for the ramble:) Thanks!
Charles
Really nice article.
I see you prescribe volume in terms of heavy sets/week for a movement/muscle group. For example for intermediates you said they should do 9-18 sets per week. Now, I doubt you ever make your lifters do 15 hard sets, or even close to that, of deadlifts per week since it’s generally more taxing. So I’m sure you’ll agree when you talk about movements, there should be a bit more context involved.
I wonder how do you determine what exercises one should do if they want to increase their squat, deadlift and bench weights? Do you consider what muscles are limiting factors in certain movements?
Borge
If one were to do 18 sets for deadlifts per week it would not be hard sets, no – but I honestly think most people can infer that from just using some common sense, hence “movement/muscle group”. So you would use the deadlift but also hip hinge movements such as glute-ham raises and RDLs to get up into that kind of volume. And also, 18 sets would be the upper end of the range and only for someone with everything in order, recovery-wise.
To answer your question, I generally look at what parts of the movement seem to be limiting. So pause work if weak off the chest in the bench press, floor press for bottom to middle-range, bands or boards for middle- to top end of the range. Then, you just have to apply it and see if it works, because in theory it may seem that this is the most logical way to do things, but in practice you can have someone getting no added bottom end strength from pause work, but getting tremendous gains using bands. Only experience and testing can tell you this.
Charles
Makes sense, thank you!
Lawrence Neal
Interesting article Borge! It seems like there are a lot of concepts we agree and some areas we differ. Can’t wait to have you on the Corporate Warrior podcast to learn more about your perspective. I had no idea how prolific you are!
Borge
Thanks, Lawrence! Looking forward to discussing it further 🙂
Dave
Hello Borge,
I have just bought your Myo-Reps book and then came across this article. I’m 49, have never really had a good response to training in terms of size and often felt thrashed. Recently due to fatigue and work/family commitments I have had to cut back to a full body routine with DUP consisting of TBDL (2 sets DUP H/M/L i.e. on Day 1 I do 2 heavy sets, Day 2 I do two medium sets and Day 3 I do two light sets all after warmups), DB RDL (2 * 12), Leg Extension (2 *12), Pull Up (2 sets DUP H/M/L), Machine Row (2 sets DUP H/M/L), DB Incline Bench (2 sets DUP H/M/L), DB O/H Press (2 sets DUP H/M/L), Lateral Raise (1 set), DB Inverted Curl (1 set), Pushdown (1 set), Hammer Curl (1 set) – on the exercise with one set, I stop just short of failure. With my schedule I can get to do this twice a week but three times is very challenging – so on the DUP exercise I would rarely get the entire Heavy , Medium and Light cycle done in one week. Do you think it’s too low volume to gain muscle size? Thanks
Borge
4 sets per week is borderline low, yes – but if you have a high stress environment it could very well be the best way to set up a program for you. Are you gaining strength? That is the most important thing. If you generally feel well recovered after workouts, you could try adding 1 set to the main movements. I would also prefer that you added a knee-dominant lower body movement. If squats are difficult, add a split squat or leg press.
Dave
Thanks very much for the advice, I will try to act on it.
Mario Diniz
Hello Mr. Borge, amazing article.
Could you please explain where did you get this “It only takes 1-2 hard sets to get 80-85% of the training effect” from? I’m very curious about this, because if this is true I will switch to a full body workout plan.
Thanks!
Borge
Thank you 🙂
It is based on the aggregate of the research on the dose-response on training volume for hypertrophy – when you ignore some of the meta-reviews that tend to be slightly biased.
Mario Diniz
Thanks for replying!
So in your opinion 3 hard sets per muscle group, per session, would be sufficient to stimulate 85% of maximum hypertrophy/strenght in the muscle, even in a intermediate with 9 years of lifting?
When you got to a 180KG bench-press you used this principle of training aswell?
If so, I will try a full body routine 3 times per week, ~3 hard sets per muscle group per session.
Thanks once again 🙂
Borge
It’s not just my opinion. This is Schoenfeld’s meta-review from last year:
“Each additional set was associated with an increase in effect size (ES) of 0.023 corresponding to an increase in the percentage gain by 0.37%. Outcomes for weekly sets categorised as lower or higher within each study showed a significant effect of volume on changes in muscle size (P = 0.03); the ES difference between higher and lower volumes was 0.241, which equated to a percentage gain difference of 3.9%
Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305455324_Dose-response_relationship_between_weekly_resistance_training_volume_and_increases_in_muscle_mass_A_systematic_review_and_meta-analysis [accessed Jun 11 2018].
You should check out my recent FB post:
http://www.facebook.com/coach.borgefagerli/posts/1074839206000085
Be sure to read Schoenfeld’s and my comments in the thread below.
Dekadinious
Hello Børge!
I am currently doing a variation of Lyle’s Generic Bulking Routine with about 14 total weekly sets per muscle group. I only have the opportunity to do four days in a row (upper/lower), with three days rest.
In your experience and with your current knowledge, would it be more prudent to do it like this, or to change to a three sets per muscle group type program four days in a row (full body)?
The volume would go down slightly, but frequency would increase. The problem is, should you push hard on all days, or not on such a full body program? If not, would this limit gains? Muscle size is the current goal.
Borge
Yes, full body 4 days in a row I would do for a higher rep phase only, then an upper-lower split for lower reps. I think 12 sets is the maximum for most people with ordinary lives – and many find that they have better long-term results with more moderate volumes of 6-9 weekly sets.
Dekadinious
Thanks!
I think I will keep the program as is with upper/lower training four days in a row, but the next cycle I will try to go for the lower ranges of sets per exercise.
This will give me about 10 sets per week per muscle group on Lyle’s Generic Bulking Routine. I’m not training too close to failure most days and I am progressing in weight only when I hit all reps on all sets.
This way I have some periods of lower intensity as a normal progression on the program, and only one or two weeks pushing close to max per 6-week cycle.
Will four days in a row still be able to give good muscle building results with such a plan, even though upper, lower, rest, upper, lower, rest, rest probably is “more optimal”?
Borge
Yes, there was in fact just a study published that showed equal outcome with 3 days in a row vs spread out, so I think 4 days should be fine as well.
Charles
Found you after hearing you speak on SSD podcast. From there I’ve been reading and listening to all your content. I believe you mentioned you are in your 40’s from one of the podcast. With that being said, I am 41. I have spent the last three years trying the high volume (15-20 sets per body part) approach with no luck and feeling like I have been spinning my wheels along with my shoulders getting destroyed. Your insights on volume were a breath of fresh air. At the same time I’ve recently heard some podcast indicating the ability to gain any muscle (besides initial newbie gains) in your 40’s is not going too happen. That makes me think I should just dial my training back for maintenance and not push myself to hard to avoid any other injuries.
What are your thoughts on trying to gain muscle in your 40’s? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again
Borge
My thoughts about what, specifically? Whether it is possible? Of course it is.
Charles
Thank you for responding. Yes, I was questioning whether or not it was even possible to gain muscle in your 40’s after the initial newbie gains. My initial attempts to gain some lean mass by increasing my calories by 350 – 500 calories per day over 8 weeks while following a high volume approach seemed to only increase my waist size. My bodyweight was only increasing by 1 pound a week and taking various measurements from chest, arms, back, thighs and calves seemed to remain static with no increase. These measurements maybe could have been so minuscule that they went undetected or with the high volume approach I kept my muscles in a state of always trying to recover to baseline instead of increasing in size. I have done this 2-3 times with what seems like no improvement over the past three years.
With that said, how would you recommend an individual in their 40’s go through phases where they are trying to add mass?
1. Do you recommend a different type of training to individuals in their 40’s or should it be very similar to the current SSD program? I feel as though the current SSD program is directed towards younger individuals.
2. What caloric surplus do you recommend or percentage of bodyweight increases per week would you recommend. I apologize if you have already stated this in one of your podcast. Just trying to come up with a game plan to improve my lean mass at my current age.
Thanks again for all the information you provide via your website, podcast and social media.
Borge
1. The SSD program is perfect for older individuals, so not sure where you got that idea – remember that I’m 44 myself. The SSD System involves phases of training with an underlying structure that enhances the results of the one prior to it. As I will also cover once you are getting to the end of the first training cycle (there will be a module on a drip schedule to be released only after 10 weeks since you purchased it), is how you can optimize the program further based on various metrics that will be apparent once you have gone through a full cycle.
2. Also covered in the SSD system, and this will depend on your training status, but gaining more than 0.2-0.5% of bodyweight per week is usually going to lead to more fat than muscle gain.
Ryan Connor
Hello Coach Borge – huge fan of yours.
So I want to swing this idea by you. I’m a pretty advanced lifter (placed in a NPC mens physique, lifetime natural).
I’ve done every split and routine the sun. And what I’ve gravitated towards, as a nice “base training” style, and especially when life/recovery is off is…FULL BODY TRAINING.
Someetimes every other day, or perhaps daily full body. The latter is where the nuance is. And what you have recommended here (light/heavy/myorep) on all muscle groups daily…this is some next level stuff!!!
I want to structure something right here though and not blow my recover off the wall.
What do you think of this..conceptually…and of course would appreciate any suggestions you have.
Full body (every other day).
3-5 main compound movements, done in a strength circuit fashion (antagostic pairing). Brisk pace, resting only long enough to maximize performance.
Rep scheme alternate amongst 8/6/4/2 (wave ramping) or 3×5 or 5×5 or just ramping sets of 3 (to a training max).
Then back off and basically do one myo rep set with a 15-20RM, possbily only for one or two compound lifts (body part ofcus) or maybe ALL of them.
Done. Off day next day. THen come back again next day and maybe alternate rep scheme/lifts (barbells, dumbells, weighted calisthenics, machines etc.) to keep things very novel and fun.
Now…the nuance is can I do this EVERY DAY? Rather than every other day. Would that honestly be too much. Something like Day 1 (the above heavy compound split) and Day 2 (15-20 rep machine pump circuit??).
Can this work?? Throw a myorep day in there as well.
Full body everyday (or eveyr other day), rotating heavy/myorep/light days.
Would love to hear your thoughts on this and any advice for practical implementation!
Best,
R
Borge
Hi Ryan, thank you for the feedback and congrats on your achievements 🙂
I think full-body workouts 5-6x/week can work if you are young, healthy, have optimal sleep, stress management, hormones and in general have excellent recovery. I would divide whatever weekly volume you have found to be your sweet spot over the number of workouts per week and go from there. Keep in mind that 1 Myo-rep set is 2-4 standard sets, volume-wise (depending on your strength-endurance profile). I would not mix different types of stimuli and loading on the same day, keep them separate.
A recent Swedish study showed some of the most impressive growth rates ever in a research setting with a weekly undulating periodization model where weeks 4 and 8 were dedicated to occlusion training (which Myo-reps emulates) and the other weeks were rotated around different rep ranges. That should also be able to work on a daily rotation, but there might be advantages to focusing on a given type of stimulus for a period of time to allow adaptation and avoid redundancy/overlap or interference effects.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319142595_Optimizing_strength_training_for_hypertrophy-A_periodization_of_classic_resistance_training_and_blood-flow_restriction_training
Which is why I have reasons to believe that a linear load progression and a gradual transition from higher rep, Myo-rep training to lower rep, mechanical loading – as outlined in my new training system found at http://www.sustainableselfdevelopment.com
Jake Furze
Hi Borge
Really enjoyed this article. I do full body 3 times a week, my routine is:
Bench Press
Chin Ups
Dips
Barbell Row
OHP
Squats
Deadlifts
I do one set for each exercise until I can’t do another good rep with clean form (no drop sets or pause sets) and when I can get to 8 good reps or more I increase the weight on the next workout
Would this workout mean I’m hitting the muscle groups for around 6-9 sets per week (eg chest shoulders and triceps on bench, dips and ohp for 9 sets a week) and therefore fit your recommendation for the right amount of weekly volume or should I be doing each exercise for 3 sets per workout three times a week?
Also feel free to critique my routine 😉 look forward to hearing back from you
Jake
Borge
I don’t do program consults in the comments section of an article, that requires a more thorough evaluation of someone.
1 working set, unless the warm-ups are in the vicinity of 3-5RIR, counts as 1 set. You do have some overlap, depending on how you perform each exercise – so I would say you are in the range of 3-6 sets per muscle group per week with this program.
Perry Rose
Hello Borg.
Excuse me if I have missed your answer to this question already asked — but do you know what hits the central nervous system more, high or low reps?
At 55 years old, and lifting for about three years now, I am still trying to find a good workout.
Thank you in advance.
Borge
Higher reps will hit the central nervous system more, recovery-wise, but going to failure and muscle damage also does – so heavy, low rep training to failure and eccentrics will also require more recovery.
Eric
Hey Borge! thanks for the awesome content. I purchased your SSD training system when it came out. I got to the clusters and they felt awesome I did two clusters for my bench of 5,5,5,5,5 and 5,5,5,4. I felt really well. Do you think some people benefit from this ”high volume” submax type of workout? it was with 45 sec rest intervals and 3-4 min break between clusters. My main goal is hypertrophy so I don’t know if that is so good but I’ll try it for a while and see what happens. Even at lower volumes in any rep range when I train closer to failuire I seem to get a little burned out maybe I wasn’t managin fatigue properly and shooting for 1-0RIR most of the time but those clusters made me feel like a million dollars it reminded me of the way I trained before the internet when I did whatever I felt like doing and that’s when I got most of my gains even though I was a lot weaker I did gain muscle. A very wise man once said ”let your instincts guide you”
Borge
Yes, I definitely think that volume can work great for hypertrophy, and doing submax work makes it easier to do and recover from. There have been a few recent studies looking at this now, e.g this published ahead of print: https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/publishahead/Is_Performing_Repetitions_to_Failure_Less.94611.aspx
ERIC
Hey Borge. How does the new donate feature work?
Borge
If you appreciate my work you may donate an amount of your choosing.
Matteo Ferrari
Hi Borge, I am training each muscle with a frequency of 1,5xweek, training 3 times/week.
Push+quads and Pull+Hams alternaring between the two workouts.
I am doing 4 sets to failure for each muscle group (2 compounds and 2 Isos), does that look like a reasonable amount of volume to you?
Borge
That’s actually pretty close to what I’m doing these days 🙂 Keep in mind that there will be some overlap in muscle groups, and they also have different recovery curves and work capacity, so I’m generally not a fan of doing just a preset volume for everything, though.
Robert
Hi Borge,
On one hand, you have people such as Doug Brignole who is an acomplished older bodybuilder who advocates that volume, short of failure, is what drives hyperthrophy and that short intense workouts do not. Its hard to know what to do at times.
Borge
I guess you just have to try and find out for yourself then 🙂
Join the Abbreviated Training group on FB and see for yourself. I have the utmost respect for Doug and I even tried his training approach for a while – but for me personally, I get more out of less. I don’t enjoy spending 3-5x more, whether it be time, effort or money, to get essentially the same or less results.
Robert
I will do that, Borge and thanks. I am going to join the group and continue on. I completely agree with you. I do not like to slave away in the gym at all and I have other interests. It would be nice to find the balance. I will start with less and see where it goes. Thanks again.
Rolando
Hi borge, due to working an ungodly number of hours, I’m trying to progress on twice a week full body. Do you think a couple of sets per major muscle group will be enough? (like 2 sets of each of the following: Bench Press, OHP, Dips; Rows, Chinups and Curls; Squats, Stiff legged Deadlifts and Calf raise)
Rolando
I’m just afraid that 4 sets per week is too low (even though most muscle group receive some kind of indirect stimulation from other exercises)
Borge
This is my current program, which I am gaining nicely on:
A:
Squat 2 sets
Leg Curl 1 set
Bench 2-3 sets
Row 2-3 sets
B:
RDL 2 sets
Leg Ext 1 set
OHP 2-3 sets
Chins 2-3 sets
Don
Borge, I’m assuming you’re taking each set to failure or 1 RIR with such low volume. When you mentioned before that some of your bodybuilders are performing 20-24 sets per week per bodypart, would those all be submaximal sets (say, 3-5 RIR)?
Also, when you say you’re currently making gains, is that based purely on strength increases or are you also taking measurements?
Borge
Yes, most bodybuilders training those volume ranges usually stay far away from failure. Look at e.g. Ronnie Coleman – lots of submax sets and maybe one set here and there where he truly trained to or close to failure. It’s just hard to notice since he was so insanely superhumanly strong. Now look at Dorian Yates, the same submaximal work-up sets with one set to failure – he just called them warm-up sets and didn’t really count them.
As for myself, I’ve been at my genetic max in muscle mass for quite some time now. I also quit HRT 3 years ago, and had to reestablish a new baseline after losing a lot of muscle mass through my recovery period. With natural testosterone levels around 70% of those I had on HRT, and also the natural pulsatile release vs. the constant high levels of synthetic use, I am still more muscular than many guys out there who have been training their whole life, and don’t expect any gains in that department. But strength I can always improve 🙂
Rolando
Is this 2 o 3 times/week?
Borge
That’s a week of training, so 2 workouts.
alex
Any of it myo reps?
Borge
Sometimes, yes.
Alex
Ok, I’ve read and heard more of your stuff since I asked a question earlier. And think I got the gist of your current perspective. Thanks for all your sharing and free stuff, and thanks for the tip on the abbreviated Training Facebook page. I’ve cut down from 80kg to 69 kg while maintaining lean body mass, the coach I hired prescribed high volume for my bulk. Gained 8 kg over 8 months, but now that I cut it away again (took some time) it seems very little became muscle. So thanks for the tips as they are more suited for my life right now, hopefully the next bulk will a bit shorter and leaner with more actual muscle gain. Thanks again
Billy
Do you think that more frequent training is better. For instance would the following regimen be enough with 4-5 days in between workouts. Or would it be better to work some parts like chest 2x per week?
A.
Bench 2 sets
Rows 2 sets
Squats 2 sets
B
Overhead Press
Pullups
Accessories.
Borge
Frequency should be adjusted according to what you can recover from, so it’s impossible to say what is optimal for you. I suggest you start doing the split you have chosen (I would add RDL or leg curl to the B workout, though) e.g. Mon-Wed-Fri. If you notice that you gain more from Friday one week to Wednesday the next vs. Monday to Friday in one week, then you do better with a slightly lower frequency – now you should just figure out if this is the outcome for all exercises or only a few. Then try adding in more rest days, and if that improves gains even more then you just keep going until you’re not getting any more benefits or if there is no difference. Then go back to the previous frequency, as I do prefer to train more rather than less frequently. In practical terms, many have found the split you have suggested on a 2x/week setup (e.g. Monday – A, Thursday – B) to be plenty, with 2-3 sets per exercise they are gaining at a consistent but continuous rate over months and years.
Dave Vincenti
Hey Borge,
I have tried a Full Body twice a week (Tuesday and Saturday) but I seem to get burned out after about a month, together with aches and pains in shoulders and worse sleep. The fun thing is that I am not even training legs because on injury right now so I was surprised that it could burn me out since I was gaining reps/strenght on a constant basis in these 4 weeks. Session A: Dips, Pullups, Shoulder Press, Face Pulls, Abs Session B: Dumbbell Bench Press, Rows, Lateral Raise, Biceps Curl, Abs. 3 sets per exdercise stopping when I start grinding so that I know I could probably not do another rep. Of course the subsequent sets would fall (something like 10,8,5).
What happened?
I wonder if I should lower volume even more or if I should spread this out with an upper lower split done 3 times per week? Something like ABA BAB?
thank you!
Borge
I would simply encourage you to experiment and see what happens. If you can tolerate full-body workouts with 2 sets and maybe also ensuring you always have 1 rep in reserve, then there’s your answer. If you want to keep doing 3 sets and/or train hard, then you should probably try a split where one set of muscle groups are recovering while the other is being stimulated. Your current split does have a lot of overlap.
Dave vincenti
Thanks for your answer, I am now trying an upper-lower split 3 times a week to see if recovery is better. I will alternate these two workouts
Upper:
inverted Row
Dumbbell Bench Press
Lat Pulldown
incline Lateral Raises
Biceps
Triceps
I do not do overhead press since I feel it does not do anything for my shoulders (do not have super short arms either)
Lower:
Bulgarian split squats
Single leg Romanian deadlift
Calves
Abs
What do you think? I wonder how many sets I should use, also I did not add another chest exercise since my chest seems to grow “easily”
Borge
As you can probably see for yourself, the upper body workout will be a lot longer, and with some overlap (e.g. bench press will involve tris, rows and pulldowns will involve biceps), but if you manage volume it should be fine. For the legs, I prefer having some leg curls or nordic ham in there as the biceps femoris short head is not activated by hip extension only.
Volume recommendations are in the article 🙂
Dave vincenti
Thank you! I
by too much overlap do you mean that I should drasticallt cut the volume for biceps and triceps isolation?
Will try with 2 sets per exercise as you advised, I will add a form of leg curl!
Borge
Yes, as biceps and triceps are also the muscle groups taking longer to recover you don’t really want to do more total volume for them than the larger upper body muscles.
Dave vincenti
I agree indeed, another thing I wanted to try is keeping these workouts within a 30 minute timeframe (warm-up excluded).
Why? I also do 3 times 30minuted of cardio work at 70-75percent heart rate intensity (for heart health). I know doing that on separate days would be better in order not to interfere with the hypertrophy stimulus. Like that, I can do “something” 6 days a week without overdoing it. Whenever I do not have time I could do it at the end of the workouts without exceeding 60 minutes. What do you think?
Borge
Sounds good 🙂
Abram Kline
I’ve been training for awhile now doing low, moderate, and high volume. Looking back I haven’t improved any more or better then when I was doing lower volume (started with MAX-OT) so I no longer see the point (unless someone enjoys doing it) working out for longer time periods for equal the gains so I recently switched back to low volume (6 sets per body part to positive failure).
I’ve been reading your articles and the comments (second or third time I’ve done this in the past few years) and wondering on a few clarifications. I may have missed them somewhere so apologies if that’s the case.
When you speak of failure are you speaking of positive failure or absolute? Meaning when you write “to failure” are you referring to that failure point as being not able to complete another rep on your own so you do not attempt it? So 1 RIR would be 2 away from a rep that could not be completed, etc.?
Also, the arm recommendations fascinates me that even lower volume may actually be better. Genetically arms are weak for me in comparison to other body parts.
My current set up is
MON/THURS: chest/sh/tri/Quads (3 sets to positive failure each)
TUES/FRI: Back/Bi/Hams (3 sets to positive failure each)
This may not be exactly like you suggest but so far I’m enjoying it and that’s half the battle (maybe more).
My question is on whether it would be more beneficial to do tris with back and also switching to bis with chest or keep it the way it is since they need more recovery time? My thought process behind potentially switching to doing them the opposite is that they would be fresher the next day and I could hit them with a full 3 sets but that may be flawed based on the overall recovery they may need.
As of right now I am going to drop from 3 sets down to 2 for tris since I am doing chest and shoulders that day already.
I’ve just recently gone back to the low volume and recovering from a partially torn pec so it may be one of those, “Try out both and see,” type things but wanted to see if there was a good direction to go for starting off on the right foot.
Borge
Failure generally refers to the inability to complete another repetition without altering technique/cheating or getting assistance from someone, yes.
I see nothing wrong with a push/pull split, and I wouldn’t really make any changes since you’re already working each muscle group 2x/week. Bis and tris get hit indirectly with all push and pull exercises, and moving them to the alternate day would increase frequency but without altering volume.
They wouldn’t necessarily be all that much “fresher” since the training you are doing for the other muscle groups are also adding fatigue, so instead consider moving them first in the workout.
Abram Kline
Thank you, appreciate the insight and quick reply! Hoping that this pec injury heals fairly quickly as the lower volume has me excited about working out again.
Darren Hawk
Hello Borge
When you refer to “gains” do you mean strength or hypertrophy? when I do a low volume approach like you suggest I notice I can add weight to the bar much easier vs when I do higher volumes.
However.. from my experience, I don’t feel like I add much muscle doing these low-volume approaches even though I am adding load/reps to the bar. I don’t look like I lift when I compare myself to these people on IG
What do you suggest I do?
Do you agree with this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxGdGChvk2c&
Apparently strength standards don’t work.
Borge
Well, maybe you need a slightly higher volume then, but there is no reason to believe that adding weight to the bar over time won’t eventually lead to mass gains – or that a high volume where you’re NOT able to add weight to the bar leads to actual muscle growth. It’s mostly likely just swelling.
Darren Hawk
Thank you Borge. I also noticed with your lower volume approach it takes a while for a plateau but what do we do when it eventually happens? My incline bench machine stalled at 330lbs how do I overcome this plateau? I use micro plates so I was progressing as slow as possible already.
Lejandro
Hi Borge, after reading the above article and seing the Jordan Peters educational series I’ve written a routine which seems to match all the points. But I’d like to hear from you if I’m missing anything (I would define myself a “beginner”, I was not but I’ve been detrained for the last two years.
I would train 3 times a week (mon/wed/fri) rotating 3 routines (i will have 3 variations for each of the movements below)
Just one set to failure (1×8-12)
Chest compound
Upper Back horizontal Pull
Shoulder Compound
Lat Vertical Pull
Triceps compound
Biceps exercise
Squatting motion (leg press/hack/etc)
Hamstring exercises
Calf raise variation
Ab Exercise
Do you think it’s gonna work out well?
Thanks
Borge
If it’s just one set to failure, it could work. I’d just be concerned that you’re also hitting bis and tris indirectly with all pulling and pushing, so they’re in practical terms getting at least double the volume of other muscle groups. This while also being the muscle groups slowest to recover (pecs, tris and bis take the most time to recover).
My own program is also full-body, 3x/week, 5 exercises and 2 sets per exercise. I don’t even do direct arm work anymore, but if I program it, it’s just once/week with an eye towards exercise selection for the pecs, delts and lats so that arms are still hit indirectly to various degrees (but not always).
This is why programming is such an art, not just a science. Or rather, a craft vs art/science – you need to understand all of these variables to construct and adapt programming.
Leandro
Thanks. Anyway for me personally I never had trouble with direct arm work and recovery interfering with other muscles. In fact i had my best progress in the past on a Poliquin-like split
Chest and Back
Legs
Rest
Arms and shoulders
Rest
Over 5 days, using a higher volume
Ryan
Hello Borge,
I’ve read your ebook several times and am a fan of your work. I’ve implemented myo reps on and off in the past. Lately, I’m coming around to the mindset that less really can be more. I’m questioning all of the current research as far as volume recommendations go and I’m wondering if a lot of the gains being made are local inflammation and not actual muscle gains at all. I’m sure a biopsy could tell the story one way or another. My question is, what do you believe the true minimum effective volume is to slowly make progress over a long period of time and not fall into the chronic inflammation hole? Is it possible that 1 hard set per week per muscle group could be adequate given that the necessary intensity is present? I’ve read many research papers and meta analysis. I’d love your input.
Thank you for your time,
Ryan
Borge
Hi Ryan, this is literally in the article: “It only takes 1-2 hard sets to get 80-85% of the training effect”.
I’m currently doing an upper-lower split over 4 days per week, with only 1 hard set per muscle group per workout, and gaining nicely 🙂
Jacob
Do you recommend an upper set limit per session Borge?
So it would be different if sb is doing fb, ul or ppl. But would you limit the amount to a potential max?